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2huwman View Drop Down
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    Posted: 28 January 2015 at 3:45pm
I love the idea of multi-game boards like the blue elf and pandoras box - small, loads of games, plug 'n' play, save some wear and tear on my pcbs, etc. Nothing compares to the actual PCBs of course, but I've always been interested in emulation, and there's a time and a place for it!

But the multi-game boards I've tried have had poor sound quality and don't output the game's native resolution or frame rate. They're basically underpowered, so the emulation suffers. The look and feel of the original isn't really there. The fact that you can't add games or update easily is also a pain.

So just out of interest, I've started to look at cheap options that have most of the same benefits as multiboards, but provide better emulation with native resolution and framerates, and are open for updates and new games.

One of the easiest and cheapest ways to achieve good emulation is with a small pc, groovymame, and the crt emudrivers. I got a cheap small form factor desktop (optiplex 780 £45) with a reasonable core2duo processor, cheap (£5) compatible ati radeon card, and a jpac. Easily under £80, and there's plenty of room in most cabs for that, so I should really have stopped there. But I wanted to go smaller!

So then I got an old hp NC6000 laptop with 1.5 gb ram, 1.4ghz pentium m, 30gb hdd for £25 all in. The crtemudrivers wouldn't install, but soft15khz worked fine, and works with groovymame. The CPU deals with mame surprisingly well - all the 8 and 16 bit 2d games i want to play run at full speed (apart from moonwalker which slows down a bit). But generally very good results for £50 all in including the second hand jpac).



But I felt I could go a bit smaller using a mini ITX mobo. I got a one<span style="line-height: 1.4;"> with 2.2ghz core2duo, 2gm ram, and a radeon x600 for £30. I added in a pico psu for £13, and set the whole thing up with 64bit groovyarcade to extract maximum performance. This also means it doesn't need Windows. Here it is sitting on top of the laptop (the mobo is 17cm by 17cm).</span>



The PicoPSU only needs a 12v line. I haven't measured how much power it needs, but it's possible that some JAMMA PSUs might provide enough. Then it really would be plug n play. But I'm currently using a 12v external power brick. There's no hdd - it boots from a usb stick and the roms are stored on another usb stick. It's got a full mame set, plus full sets for MD, SNES, NES, and MS. So about £75 including the memory sticks, power brick, and jpac.

Anyone got any other ideas? Cheaper/better laptops? Smaller mobos? I think both the crtemudrivers and soft15khz can be picky about GPUs, so don't think just any radeon card would do.

The only real dealbreaker for me is that the emulation needs to be the right 15khz resolution and framerate for each game. And obviously there needs to be enough CPU power to play the games!

I know that the raspberry pi can run mame, and this looks interesting:

http://thearcademan.net/connecting-a-raspberry-pi-to-an-old-15khz-arcade-monitor/

But I'm not convinced it would give perfect resolution and framerate with the downscaler used (think it might be interlaced rather than progressive).



Edited by 2huwman - 22 February 2015 at 1:20pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bensonrad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 January 2015 at 3:50pm
What would be your opinion on say running Millipede & Centipede in some sort of emulation format rather than a multi-board in a cab with a trackball?
Ben
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WANTED: Med Res Monitor, Paperboy & Outrun, Turbo Outrun Boardsets & Centipede Cabaret Cab or Euro Millipede
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 2huwman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 January 2015 at 3:55pm
I don't have a cab with a trackball, but assume it uses an optical sensor? If that's the case I would PC based emulation as above, along with groovymame, an Optipac for the trackball, and a JPAC for the rest. Should give you perfect results I would think. Thats what I used for my Chase HQ multi driving cab (as that has an optical steering sensor) and works a treat!

Edit: probably use a mouse hack as a cheaper alternative to an optipac.


Edited by 2huwman - 28 January 2015 at 3:57pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ColinD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 January 2015 at 8:44pm
My main concerns/needs are...   ( in order of importance to me)

Video sync....   This is your look and feel....You must be able to get a sync lock on the video update to avoid tearing...  try Scramble which should be super smooth....  if you see any tearing on the scrolling background... game over... try again !!  (The Pandora's Box 2 spectacularly fails here on many / most titles!!) - Ok... you might struggle with some of the odder refresh rates, but most should be 60 FPS.....

Input Lag.... Also effects the Feel.... should be tight, and not more than a couple of frames behind if that.... AFAIK Emulators tend to add up/about a frame of lag, due to the nature of the beast and video rendering/buffering.... basically running about frame behind....  Boards generate the video display in real time, line by line, but I think that emulators tend to generate the whole screen first (So the display has already been drawn before the emulator renders it, sends out to the video card and then waits for the next vsync before flipping....  thats my understading anyway.... and you would not notice being a frame behind (or 2 at worst)....   As an example I played Phoenix on a mame table top, and you could see when you were moving that when you changed direction, the ship continued moving for at the very least a couple of frames (probably a little more) before changing direction.... so you were pressed left, and the ship still continued to go right with a noticeable lag....

Audio....  No St...Stu..Stuttering.....

CPU power....  Should not be a problem with most of the older games....  you want 60 FPS with little or no skipping,...  I can live with the odd skip, but please no video update tearing as above !!

Cheers, Col




Edited by ColinD - 28 January 2015 at 9:08pm
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>>>>> Return of the Jedi PCB <<<<<
>>>>> Namco Pole Position II PCB Set <<<<<
>>>>> Atari Colour Vector PowerBrick <<<<<
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 2huwman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 January 2015 at 8:51pm
yup, zero screen tearing and native resolutions are the beauty of groovymame! just fired up scramble on the mini itx, and smooth as silk! i guess it would be on the nc6000 as well, as it handles TMNT and other more demanding games fine. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ColinD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 January 2015 at 8:57pm
Added some extra stuff to my comments above....
Wanted
>>>>> Return of the Jedi PCB <<<<<
>>>>> Namco Pole Position II PCB Set <<<<<
>>>>> Atari Colour Vector PowerBrick <<<<<
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 2huwman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 January 2015 at 9:05pm
Looks like they've done some work on reducing input lag on groovymame.


i havent read all the way through, but looks like it's less than one frame now. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ColinD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 January 2015 at 9:21pm
I'll have a mooch thanks, in my opinion though, you will always have a video output lag, just over (or locked solid to) a frame behind due to starting the video rendering at the bottom of the display and then displaying that display - so you know whats been drawn on the screen before actually rendering it in the virtual emulation world (if that's how they do it ?), and then waiting for the next display update to then switch over and to display that video buffer that you just rendered beforehand, unless they are using some real time fancy pants rendering and racing against the beam just in time like the original hardware does (which is the way to go if technically possible !!)....  I'm no expert on this so feel free to have a pop at me.....

Games such as Nemesis have an odd bug in that the Background and the Sprites get rendered but the sprites tend to be a frame behind... this is a known bug/issue.... and apparent on the 2nd level when scrolling up and down with the gun turrets wobbling....  I guess they should delay the background rendering by a frame to fix ?  - Its probably a case of the origonal board running a frame behind having its work cut out redering the sprites to the sprite buffer  (Hint... Double Buffering is used on the sprites afaik, but not on the tiles) .... and I also guess that when it runs out of time due to having to render 'too many sprites,' it will signal a 'hey wait for me I've not quite finished yet', so you get slowdown when things get really busy.....

There were no such problems with Dave Spicers Sparkade...  But Dave obviously did his homework here..... :-)

Inputs should still be obviously near real time within a frame when the emulation is solid, should not be that difficult , but you have lots of driver layers in the way which need to update asap and cascade through ? (the video will be/ is still delayed if I've described correctly though ?)...... if I've sussed things right....Confused


Edited by ColinD - 28 January 2015 at 9:53pm
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>>>>> Return of the Jedi PCB <<<<<
>>>>> Namco Pole Position II PCB Set <<<<<
>>>>> Atari Colour Vector PowerBrick <<<<<
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 2huwman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 January 2015 at 4:58pm
OK, here's the messy prototype of my blue elf/pandora's box killer!



It's got the following features:
  • small! (17x17x8cm, bit bigger than the 15x15x3cm blue elf)
  • cheap(ish) - less than £100
  • powerful - core2duo @2.2ghz with 2gb ram
  • the CPU fan is the only moving part
  • completely powered by the JAMMA PSU. 
  • plug 'n' play baby!
  • runs groovymame & groovyume under groovyarcade 64 bit linux
  • thousands of arcade & console games: newest version of mame, snes, md, ms, nes, 2600, jaguar, etc.
  • no screen tearing! 
  • native resolutions for each game! 
  • no crappy audio! 
  • ultra low lag (less than one frame)!
  • update groovymame over ethernet connection
  • completely open - update your roms on the second USB stick. just drag and drop your legally owned roms from your full mame set!
  • need more storage? shove another USB drive in!
  • nice clean frontend (very important!)





in the cold light of day:



pixel perfect:







Just need to sort the sound out properly - I'm currently using a USB powered amp, but will switch to a 12v one. 

If anyone wants a shopping list let me know. How could you spend £70+ on a Blue Elf when you could make this?



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote danscu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 January 2015 at 7:02pm
Looks great mateThumbs Up
Wanted:)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thefro9 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 January 2015 at 7:29pm
Would love a parts list.
Great job.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 2huwman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 January 2015 at 7:32pm
Thanks guys, I'll put a parts list up tomorrow.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote colinmac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 January 2015 at 8:01pm
Never mind a parts list, get making them !  Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Last Bandit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 January 2015 at 8:14pm
Looks cool !! 

Is that frontend part of the GroovyArcade distro ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 2huwman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 January 2015 at 8:17pm
Originally posted by The Last Bandit The Last Bandit wrote:

Looks cool !!

Is that frontend part of the GroovyArcade distro ?


Yeah, it's on the newest beta. It's called attractmode. The 'basic' layout is the one in the photo and the best one IMHO.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FrancoB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 January 2015 at 8:25pm
This looks great. I love the form factor. I imagine it's not going to run everything but how would you say it performs on the whole?

What do you use for an OS etc?

I would love to have a MAME setup but I just don't have the time to configure everything. Is there anyway you could provide a preconfigured drive and or setup instructions for this, assuming we have the rights to all of the software etc?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote colinmac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 January 2015 at 9:13pm
Yeah. What FrancoB said !

I'd really quite like to have a go at this - but lack the 'nix skills. 

I've currently got Groovymame running on a couple of XP boxes - but would be very interested in swapping for this. 

If I cludge(tm) the hardware together, could I be a pain and ask for help with the OS/setup stuff?

G'wan. .g'wan.  Please  :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 2huwman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 January 2015 at 9:36pm
Originally posted by FrancoB FrancoB wrote:

This looks great. I love the form factor. I imagine it's not going to run everything but how would you say it performs on the whole?

What do you use for an OS etc?

I would love to have a MAME setup but I just don't have the time to configure everything. Is there anyway you could provide a preconfigured drive and or setup instructions for this, assuming we have the rights to all of the software etc?

It performs really well. I haven't tested it extensively, but it runs all the 8 and 16 bit games I've tried. All the ones on the favourites list run perfectly (Strider 2 might have stuttered once or twice at the start Edit - and fairly regularly slows down - so best stay away from the 3d games, unless you want to use frameskip, which kind of defeats the point of doing this!). 

I thought it might struggle with outrun and moonwalker, but no problems at all. So neogeo, cps 1 & 2, sega system 8 & 16 and equivalents should all be fine. I tried soukyugurentai and that slowed down. STV emulation isnt good in mame though, and groovy arcade does provide alternative emulators so I'll give that a try. 

It's all Linux based, and GroovyArcade guides you through all the setup. You just burn the GroovyArcade CD, and use that to install to whatever storage you're using (obviously using an external CD drive for the installation, which you won't need to connect after that's done!). 

I need to sort out my mame romset and artwork properly. I guess the USB drives could be cloned, but you'd need to have the exact same hardware, as GroovyArcade would install specific drivers. Basically, the easiest thing to do is install GroovyArcade to a small (4 or 8gb) USB drive from the CD, and point it to a big (e.g. 64gb) USB drive during the setup where all your roms are. 

Happy to provide more detailed guidance as and when! I had been going to ask you if you'd be able to do a JAMMA edge passthrough that splits off the 12v. I'm currently using the 12v line that went to the coin mech on my cab, but it would be neater from the edge connector!




Edited by 2huwman - 30 January 2015 at 10:03pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 2huwman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 January 2015 at 10:01pm
Originally posted by colinmac colinmac wrote:

Yeah. What FrancoB said !

I'd really quite like to have a go at this - but lack the 'nix skills. 

I've currently got Groovymame running on a couple of XP boxes - but would be very interested in swapping for this. 

If I cludge(tm) the hardware together, could I be a pain and ask for help with the OS/setup stuff?

G'wan. .g'wan.  Please  :)

Happy to help, but it's probably easier than setting up groovymame on XP. The GroovyArcade install CD guides you through everything. It's a terrific bit of software. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FrancoB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 January 2015 at 8:41am
Originally posted by 2huwman 2huwman wrote:

Originally posted by FrancoB FrancoB wrote:

This looks great. I love the form factor. I imagine it's not going to run everything but how would you say it performs on the whole?

What do you use for an OS etc?

I would love to have a MAME setup but I just don't have the time to configure everything. Is there anyway you could provide a preconfigured drive and or setup instructions for this, assuming we have the rights to all of the software etc?

It performs really well. I haven't tested it extensively, but it runs all the 8 and 16 bit games I've tried. All the ones on the favourites list run perfectly (Strider 2 might have stuttered once or twice at the start Edit - and fairly regularly slows down - so best stay away from the 3d games, unless you want to use frameskip, which kind of defeats the point of doing this!). 

I thought it might struggle with outrun and moonwalker, but no problems at all. So neogeo, cps 1 & 2, sega system 8 & 16 and equivalents should all be fine. I tried soukyugurentai and that slowed down. STV emulation isnt good in mame though, and groovy arcade does provide alternative emulators so I'll give that a try. 

It's all Linux based, and GroovyArcade guides you through all the setup. You just burn the GroovyArcade CD, and use that to install to whatever storage you're using (obviously using an external CD drive for the installation, which you won't need to connect after that's done!). 

I need to sort out my mame romset and artwork properly. I guess the USB drives could be cloned, but you'd need to have the exact same hardware, as GroovyArcade would install specific drivers. Basically, the easiest thing to do is install GroovyArcade to a small (4 or 8gb) USB drive from the CD, and point it to a big (e.g. 64gb) USB drive during the setup where all your roms are. 

Happy to provide more detailed guidance as and when! I had been going to ask you if you'd be able to do a JAMMA edge passthrough that splits off the 12v. I'm currently using the 12v line that went to the coin mech on my cab, but it would be neater from the edge connector!




That sounds great. Running CPS1/2 accurately at full speed would be fantastic. Would suggest any other components if you wanted to make a higher spec setup? I wouldn't mind spending a bit more if it would cope better with some higher end games. If it's feasible we could make various levels of setups and list the components of each one.

If it's as easy to setup as you say then it'll be great. I know a lot of people who want a setup like this but who are put off with the setup.

I've been looking at the power side of things and I'm a little concerned with running it all from the JAMMA edge/PSU. I'm not sure which Pico PSU you're using but looking at the specs they need 2A minimum. Im not sure how much power you're using but even at 40watts you're looking at over 4A, 80watts would draw over 8A. Looking at a few JAMMA switchers on the net they seem to range from about 2-5A on the 12V line.

You might want to measure how many amps you're pulling. You can do it with a multimeter if you have one.

It might be a better idea to use a separate 12v PSU for the Pico, although if you're doing that then it might be cheaper to use a small ATX PSU. It's a shame to have to use an external PSU as I would love to run it all from the JAMMA edge but I'm just a bit worried about damaging the JAMMA PSU. Just had a quick look at some of the XXXX-in-one JAMMA systems which I guess is similar to what we're doing here and they look to be using ATX PSUs.


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